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	<title>Comments on: Prince of Persia: Destiny or Inevitable Conclusion?</title>
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	<link>http://toase.net/2009/10/08/prince-of-persia-destiny-or-inevitable-conclusion/</link>
	<description>love/hate video games.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 11 Mar 2010 16:48:20 -0500</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Tales of a Scorched Earth &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Ghostbusters The Video Game: Nostalgia is a Dangerous Weapon</title>
		<link>http://toase.net/2009/10/08/prince-of-persia-destiny-or-inevitable-conclusion/comment-page-1/#comment-9494</link>
		<dc:creator>Tales of a Scorched Earth &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Ghostbusters The Video Game: Nostalgia is a Dangerous Weapon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Mar 2010 16:48:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toase.net/?p=956#comment-9494</guid>
		<description>[...] the failure of Prince of Persia (2008) in &#8220;Prince of Persia: Destiny or Inevitable Conclusion&#8221;, October 2009. &#8617;      Written by Andrew Filed in 3ps, action, movies, reviews, xbox 360   No [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the failure of Prince of Persia (2008) in &#8220;Prince of Persia: Destiny or Inevitable Conclusion&#8221;, October 2009. &#8617;      Written by Andrew Filed in 3ps, action, movies, reviews, xbox 360   No [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tales of a Scorched Earth &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Prince of Persia: Epilogue</title>
		<link>http://toase.net/2009/10/08/prince-of-persia-destiny-or-inevitable-conclusion/comment-page-1/#comment-6538</link>
		<dc:creator>Tales of a Scorched Earth &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Prince of Persia: Epilogue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Oct 2009 05:35:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toase.net/?p=956#comment-6538</guid>
		<description>[...] This is the second part of a two-part review of Prince of Persia (2008) and the &#8220;Epilogue&#8221; (2009) downloadable content. There are spoilers, but you already knew that. This review examines the &#8220;Epilogue&#8221; adventure and its relationship with the original game. The review of the original game can be read in Part 1. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This is the second part of a two-part review of Prince of Persia (2008) and the &#8220;Epilogue&#8221; (2009) downloadable content. There are spoilers, but you already knew that. This review examines the &#8220;Epilogue&#8221; adventure and its relationship with the original game. The review of the original game can be read in Part 1. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: jvm</title>
		<link>http://toase.net/2009/10/08/prince-of-persia-destiny-or-inevitable-conclusion/comment-page-1/#comment-6435</link>
		<dc:creator>jvm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Oct 2009 03:57:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toase.net/?p=956#comment-6435</guid>
		<description>@Andrew

One time I said something like &quot;games are input-output loops which make us happy&quot; or something like that. That&#039;s me being what I believe you call reductive.

Yet, I still think it&#039;s true, it&#039;s basically how I think about games, and I&#039;ve found little use for getting much more elaborate about it. I enjoy Tetris and sudoku because they make my brain very happy in some abstract way. I enjoy Ms. Pac-man because cleaning in that simple, mindless way makes me happy. I enjoy Twisted Metal 2 because I have strong nostalgia for the times I spent with friends -- and that makes me happy.

I think games are such intimate experiences that I&#039;ve decided my best way to convey them to others is to explain how it made me happy (or unhappy) and leave it there.

As I&#039;ve gotten older games that have a story and make me connect with characters have made me more happy. Uncharted, Ace Combat 04, and God of War: Chains of Olympus are a few examples. When they disappoint me -- much like when one of my sons disappoints me with misbehavior -- I still love them for what they mean to me.

Prince of Persia 2008, unlike any other game that year, succeeded in making me happy in this way. Had Dead Space been a bit deeper of an experience, I&#039;d probably have given it my nod for game of the year. But, ultimately, Jacob and Nicole did not make me feel anything. Both PoP &#039;08 and Dead Space were beautifully rendered, enjoyable I/O loops. But the one that made me feel an emotional connection was the one that made it game of the year.

Ultimately, I think the statement &quot;games are about control&quot; is right but your interpretation of it is wrong. The &quot;press X to NOT DIE&quot; is a caricature that I realize resonates with many people, but PoP &#039;08 is ultimate not that. The fact that its movement and battles have rhythms -- and that they are distinctive from each other for their type and pace of the rhythms -- makes it more than just &quot;pres X to NOT DIE&quot;.

What you see as repetition of bosses is precisely part of the rhythm of the game. Leisurely taps for the movement from place to place and then well-timed staccato for the battles.

I&#039;ve gone on too long, and I&#039;m not sure I&#039;ve even answered you adequately. Sorry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Andrew</p>
<p>One time I said something like &#8220;games are input-output loops which make us happy&#8221; or something like that. That&#8217;s me being what I believe you call reductive.</p>
<p>Yet, I still think it&#8217;s true, it&#8217;s basically how I think about games, and I&#8217;ve found little use for getting much more elaborate about it. I enjoy Tetris and sudoku because they make my brain very happy in some abstract way. I enjoy Ms. Pac-man because cleaning in that simple, mindless way makes me happy. I enjoy Twisted Metal 2 because I have strong nostalgia for the times I spent with friends &#8212; and that makes me happy.</p>
<p>I think games are such intimate experiences that I&#8217;ve decided my best way to convey them to others is to explain how it made me happy (or unhappy) and leave it there.</p>
<p>As I&#8217;ve gotten older games that have a story and make me connect with characters have made me more happy. Uncharted, Ace Combat 04, and God of War: Chains of Olympus are a few examples. When they disappoint me &#8212; much like when one of my sons disappoints me with misbehavior &#8212; I still love them for what they mean to me.</p>
<p>Prince of Persia 2008, unlike any other game that year, succeeded in making me happy in this way. Had Dead Space been a bit deeper of an experience, I&#8217;d probably have given it my nod for game of the year. But, ultimately, Jacob and Nicole did not make me feel anything. Both PoP &#8216;08 and Dead Space were beautifully rendered, enjoyable I/O loops. But the one that made me feel an emotional connection was the one that made it game of the year.</p>
<p>Ultimately, I think the statement &#8220;games are about control&#8221; is right but your interpretation of it is wrong. The &#8220;press X to NOT DIE&#8221; is a caricature that I realize resonates with many people, but PoP &#8216;08 is ultimate not that. The fact that its movement and battles have rhythms &#8212; and that they are distinctive from each other for their type and pace of the rhythms &#8212; makes it more than just &#8220;pres X to NOT DIE&#8221;.</p>
<p>What you see as repetition of bosses is precisely part of the rhythm of the game. Leisurely taps for the movement from place to place and then well-timed staccato for the battles.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve gone on too long, and I&#8217;m not sure I&#8217;ve even answered you adequately. Sorry.</p>
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		<title>By: Simon Ferrari</title>
		<link>http://toase.net/2009/10/08/prince-of-persia-destiny-or-inevitable-conclusion/comment-page-1/#comment-6425</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon Ferrari</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Oct 2009 22:26:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toase.net/?p=956#comment-6425</guid>
		<description>Yeah I realized my comment was stupid as soon as I woke up this morning. I realized the problem you had once I started remembering how it took me half the game to realize that almost none of the directional stick manipulations I was so desperately undertaking were having no effect whatsoever.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah I realized my comment was stupid as soon as I woke up this morning. I realized the problem you had once I started remembering how it took me half the game to realize that almost none of the directional stick manipulations I was so desperately undertaking were having no effect whatsoever.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://toase.net/2009/10/08/prince-of-persia-destiny-or-inevitable-conclusion/comment-page-1/#comment-6419</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Oct 2009 04:30:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toase.net/?p=956#comment-6419</guid>
		<description>@jvm

Somehow I knew you&#039;d be the first to comment, Matt. And honestly, I&#039;m glad you were. You called &lt;i&gt;Prince of Persia&lt;/i&gt; the best console game of 2008. I remember talking about it with you, where you gave me a warning that it wouldn&#039;t be what I expected. Obviously it wasn&#039;t.

By your estimation, then, is &lt;i&gt;Prince of Persia&lt;/i&gt; a rhythm game?

I had a hard time &quot;giving in&quot; to its natural rhythm, because &lt;i&gt;Prince of Persia&lt;/i&gt; was pigeonholed as an action/adventure when it is actually just an incredibly pronounced example of linearity in video games. It was impossible for me to ignore, and why I made it the basis for this review.

I loved the story - &lt;i&gt;loved&lt;/i&gt; it – and the way it enfolds you into its conclusion. But aside from that, there is no substance to the movement mechanics. There&#039;s no real combat or challenge, and as I said the approach to every map is more or less the same.

I can understand your frustrations about me dismissing the &lt;i&gt;game&lt;/i&gt; as a result of this predictability, but your arguments are far too reductive. &lt;i&gt;Any&lt;/i&gt; video game doesn&#039;t allow you to leave your mark (well, there&#039;s &lt;i&gt;Red Faction: Guerrilla&lt;/i&gt;, but that&#039;s a discussion for another day), and &lt;i&gt;any&lt;/i&gt; video game wants you to hit certain buttons in response at a particular time (shoot when enemy appears, hit RT to block, etc.). What bothers me is the whole &quot;Press X to NOT DIE&quot; phenomenon. It&#039;s not challenging, and quickly becomes tedious to play when there is no risk of failure. Though &lt;i&gt;Prince of Persia&lt;/i&gt; has the very distinct advantage of an incredible story, which carried me through to the end. At no point was I frustrated or angered by this game; merely underwhelmed.

Video games are about control, or at least presenting the &lt;i&gt;very convincing illusion&lt;/i&gt; of it. Every game has a start and finish, just like the movies they always seem to get compared to. It&#039;s how you get there that proves the most interesting – and unique - about video games. But if I&#039;m set on a pathway that has no alternative, no room for creativity or adventure, I&#039;m going to feel like I&#039;m being cheated out of this control. And I&#039;m not left with much of a video game to play.

Aside: have you applied to get &quot;parappa parkour&quot; into the Game Reviewing Lexicon yet? I&#039;m willing to bet this won&#039;t be the first time it gets used on a game, and I want to make sure it gets attributed to the original source. Seriously!

@SimonFerrari

So we&#039;re going from one extreme to the other? I don&#039;t want to mash buttons just to stay &quot;afloat&quot; on some wall, either. But I want to get there on my own, and have some say in the matter.

Using the wall run as an example: this was no different than &lt;i&gt;The Sands of Time&lt;/i&gt;. I had no problem with that. What I didn&#039;t like was the constant direction I was getting, right down to the environment itself. Perhaps I exaggerated by saying the game was a &quot;massive quick time event&quot;, but the sentiments behind that statement stand. I didn&#039;t feel like I had much choice in the matter.

I don&#039;t see the problem with an &lt;i&gt;Assassin&#039;s Creed&lt;/i&gt;-level of interaction with the environment. Replace the alleyways and stone towers with canyons and windmills, and you&#039;d have yourself a gymnast&#039;s playground. Easier said than done, of course - I&#039;m no game designer. But the whole project seems too safe when compared to what they put together for &lt;i&gt;Assassin&#039;s Creed&lt;/i&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@jvm</p>
<p>Somehow I knew you&#8217;d be the first to comment, Matt. And honestly, I&#8217;m glad you were. You called <i>Prince of Persia</i> the best console game of 2008. I remember talking about it with you, where you gave me a warning that it wouldn&#8217;t be what I expected. Obviously it wasn&#8217;t.</p>
<p>By your estimation, then, is <i>Prince of Persia</i> a rhythm game?</p>
<p>I had a hard time &#8220;giving in&#8221; to its natural rhythm, because <i>Prince of Persia</i> was pigeonholed as an action/adventure when it is actually just an incredibly pronounced example of linearity in video games. It was impossible for me to ignore, and why I made it the basis for this review.</p>
<p>I loved the story &#8211; <i>loved</i> it – and the way it enfolds you into its conclusion. But aside from that, there is no substance to the movement mechanics. There&#8217;s no real combat or challenge, and as I said the approach to every map is more or less the same.</p>
<p>I can understand your frustrations about me dismissing the <i>game</i> as a result of this predictability, but your arguments are far too reductive. <i>Any</i> video game doesn&#8217;t allow you to leave your mark (well, there&#8217;s <i>Red Faction: Guerrilla</i>, but that&#8217;s a discussion for another day), and <i>any</i> video game wants you to hit certain buttons in response at a particular time (shoot when enemy appears, hit RT to block, etc.). What bothers me is the whole &#8220;Press X to NOT DIE&#8221; phenomenon. It&#8217;s not challenging, and quickly becomes tedious to play when there is no risk of failure. Though <i>Prince of Persia</i> has the very distinct advantage of an incredible story, which carried me through to the end. At no point was I frustrated or angered by this game; merely underwhelmed.</p>
<p>Video games are about control, or at least presenting the <i>very convincing illusion</i> of it. Every game has a start and finish, just like the movies they always seem to get compared to. It&#8217;s how you get there that proves the most interesting – and unique &#8211; about video games. But if I&#8217;m set on a pathway that has no alternative, no room for creativity or adventure, I&#8217;m going to feel like I&#8217;m being cheated out of this control. And I&#8217;m not left with much of a video game to play.</p>
<p>Aside: have you applied to get &#8220;parappa parkour&#8221; into the Game Reviewing Lexicon yet? I&#8217;m willing to bet this won&#8217;t be the first time it gets used on a game, and I want to make sure it gets attributed to the original source. Seriously!</p>
<p>@SimonFerrari</p>
<p>So we&#8217;re going from one extreme to the other? I don&#8217;t want to mash buttons just to stay &#8220;afloat&#8221; on some wall, either. But I want to get there on my own, and have some say in the matter.</p>
<p>Using the wall run as an example: this was no different than <i>The Sands of Time</i>. I had no problem with that. What I didn&#8217;t like was the constant direction I was getting, right down to the environment itself. Perhaps I exaggerated by saying the game was a &#8220;massive quick time event&#8221;, but the sentiments behind that statement stand. I didn&#8217;t feel like I had much choice in the matter.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t see the problem with an <i>Assassin&#8217;s Creed</i>-level of interaction with the environment. Replace the alleyways and stone towers with canyons and windmills, and you&#8217;d have yourself a gymnast&#8217;s playground. Easier said than done, of course &#8211; I&#8217;m no game designer. But the whole project seems too safe when compared to what they put together for <i>Assassin&#8217;s Creed</i>.</p>
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		<title>By: Simon Ferrari</title>
		<link>http://toase.net/2009/10/08/prince-of-persia-destiny-or-inevitable-conclusion/comment-page-1/#comment-6415</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon Ferrari</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Oct 2009 20:06:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toase.net/?p=956#comment-6415</guid>
		<description>This is a tough call mate. I kinda almost agree with jvm, simply because I can&#039;t for the life of me imagine what a better freerunning system might be. Should I have to hammer two buttons to keep him running on a wall? I&#039;d rather keep the platforming as it is rather than go for a TR/Asssassin&#039;s Creed style handhold-crawl with a higher degree of control.

That said, I can get on board with the combat being more direct-manipulation than it is right now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a tough call mate. I kinda almost agree with jvm, simply because I can&#8217;t for the life of me imagine what a better freerunning system might be. Should I have to hammer two buttons to keep him running on a wall? I&#8217;d rather keep the platforming as it is rather than go for a TR/Asssassin&#8217;s Creed style handhold-crawl with a higher degree of control.</p>
<p>That said, I can get on board with the combat being more direct-manipulation than it is right now.</p>
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		<title>By: jvm</title>
		<link>http://toase.net/2009/10/08/prince-of-persia-destiny-or-inevitable-conclusion/comment-page-1/#comment-6410</link>
		<dc:creator>jvm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Oct 2009 12:49:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toase.net/?p=956#comment-6410</guid>
		<description>What mark would you want him to leave?

Does Lara Croft leave a mark on her world? How is one play through Uncharted any different from another? Did Layton and Luke somehow affect their world in ways I didn&#039;t know about?

I think the whole complete-control vs. quick-time-event argument is a red herring. Who cares that the developer wants you to hit certain buttons at a particular time? Does that really make so much of a difference that we can&#039;t enjoy the experience?

PoP &#039;08 was Parappa parkour, and the rhythm and flow were key to my enjoyment. I don&#039;t knock its limited paths any more than I knocked on Parappa requiring me to do kick-punch.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What mark would you want him to leave?</p>
<p>Does Lara Croft leave a mark on her world? How is one play through Uncharted any different from another? Did Layton and Luke somehow affect their world in ways I didn&#8217;t know about?</p>
<p>I think the whole complete-control vs. quick-time-event argument is a red herring. Who cares that the developer wants you to hit certain buttons at a particular time? Does that really make so much of a difference that we can&#8217;t enjoy the experience?</p>
<p>PoP &#8216;08 was Parappa parkour, and the rhythm and flow were key to my enjoyment. I don&#8217;t knock its limited paths any more than I knocked on Parappa requiring me to do kick-punch.</p>
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